Michael Klebanov

Interview.

MK: Dear Mr. Roedelius! One who troubles himself to investigate the multiple realms of contemporary music, as far from mainstream as they may lay, marks you among the most valuable composers of our time, whose works are amazingly rich, diverse, gracious and seem to lean on wide cultural basis. An interest that the origin of these qualities may awake is easy comprehensible. Your roots are German; recently you live in Austria, while your cultural links are worldwide and your projects featuring musicians from different countries. Do you believe that the profile of modern culture should be or has to be cosmopolitan, and what is the importance of artist's native culture? How would you appreciate the contribution of your own native culture to your work?

HJR: I am a self-taught musician/composer who works not in the way academically educated composers do; not out of any theory telling how music should be generated, not so much by "musical" terms, but much more by anthropological/philosophical/psychological terms, much more related to the "reality of living" and not to the "virtuality of theory". Insofar the question after my opinion whether there is a contribution to my native culture is even more relevant, because it is life itself, because real life is the main source of my art. Everything possible is ever relevant: how man generally behaves, the way things happen, what people do, the interaction between my beloved people, friends and myself, the process of becoming aware of something which is a progress, a floating stream of constant changes, but at the same time "always the same", something that happens to everybody by one or another way, because everybody is born out of the same ground/source and human condition should be understood as "the road to heaven".

MK: Concerning roots and origins: will you tell us about cultural and, especially, musical background of your early age? Can you recall something that has had remarkable influence on your further musical thought?

HJR: Yes, I had piano lessons right after the war in the Russian part of Germany, I hated it, because I had to play after scores, so (but because also there was in fact no money after a while to pay the teacher) I gave up; which I appreciated very much, because I liked much more to go into the wilderness, climbing up trees, wandering through fields, looking to the animals in creeks and lakes. I loved nature and, (my mother never knew) I didn't go to school for that reason very often.

MK: When had you first realized your interest in music engagement, what had directly caused it and what kind of change had it made in your life?

HJR: I was always interested in music/arts, but after the war with all the bad circumstances (my father died early (he was 48) so I had to feed my family replacing him when I was 14/15) there was no chance to get into the matter.

Much later in the age of 30, when I worked as physiotherapist in Berlin, one of my clients, a piano player, once invited me for a show of a famous American Theater group (The Living Theatre of Judith Malina and Julian Beck). Even so it didn't change my life immediately, it was the initial signal to think about a change in my life.

MK: What were the reasons of choosing the very kind of music you would begin with, and how was it bound to the great progress of electronics application in music that took place in Germany at a time? When and how did you get involved into electronics and learn the use of primal electro-musical devices?

HJR: Because I wasn't able to play any instrument, but liked sound/noise at all, because everything after I've decided to go the art-direction was experiment, everything was experience needed to be experienced, everything was greatest fun, but at the same time the serious "accumulation of knowledge', consciousness of the matter, there was no question why, how and whatever. It wasn't bound to any style, genre, mode.

"We were the music makers and we were the dreamers of dreams" in its real and absolutely fruitful meaning as you can hear listening to the results.

We (Human Being, Schlangenfeuer, Plus/Minus) were the first who used electrical devices, such as just fiddling around with feedback, playing with it, using the first echo-machines, prepared tapes/loops and so on long before Schulze and Froese ever went on to play synthesizers. But it just was there on our way to play around with, not as purpose to invent any "new" music. We were part of the movement, the beginning of the change of the "paradigmata of living", the time of Aquarius was there, the fisher had collected his adepts and now they started to spread the seeds.

MK: What was your awareness and impression of recent progressive music, meaning first the avant-garde of 50 s-60 s? Have you got already then your own approach to the use of electronics against that of, say, Stockhausen? Were there another musical trends that drew your attention?

HJR: We (Kluster with Schnitzler & Moebius & Cluster with Moebius) were inventors of a special/typical genre of contemporary music that NOBODY did at the time (and I guess few do even now).

Between 1968 & 1969 I lived for some months in Paris. I earned my living by giving massages to (more or less) famous people in Paris. I went to that special school "Alliance Francaise" and had big fun making friends with clochards under the bridges of Paris and in the bars and I tried to become friend with beautiful French girls. At that time I listened to the music of Pierre Henry that of course was a great input for me in Paris for a while, but I appreciated living, not any real research in contemporary music or music-history.

MK: Would you tell us about the character of different electronic projects that you took part in during the 60s, to mention Human Being? Can you define their role and describe their musical connections?

HJR: Human Being was a group/community of young people (amongst them I was the oldest) coming from different countries (Morocco, America, Berlin) and professions (students, artists of fine arts, people without any profession), altogether eight (Schnitzler was not part of this community, but he was founder-member of the first independent arts-lab of Berlin - Zodiak - that was" the home" of Human Being until mid 1969).

We were experimenting almost everything like fusion with free jazz, freestyle, psychedelic rock, theater, exhibitions, recitation and so on.

MK: When had you first met Conrad Schnitzler and how the idea of founding Kluster was born? What can you tell about this collaboration? Whose ideas prevailed?

HJR: I met Schnitzler first in 1967 somewhere in Berlin. I went with him on a journey to Corsica in 1968 where we built a nudist camp in the mountains.

Here in a full moon night I had my first meeting with "Real Music", drumming on an old oil barrel until sunrise in the midst of wilderness and beauty of the Corsican "Macchia".

Schnitzler is a very strong character with great fantasy and creativity; we went on working together for a long period in our lives. He is Kluster and in fact he is also the grey eminence behind Schulze and Froese and many other artists from Berlin and Dusseldorf and around Germany. He was a freelance "professor of real art". He made many artists going "his art-way" after they've met him. After Moebius and I decided to split from Kluster, we went the more melodic/harmonic way in the "Klusterfields", but Kluster is Schnitzler's idea, even so he wouldn't have been able to do it alone as authentic and rich as we did it together. At the end everyone's ideas prevailed, Schnitzler went on and we did, and all the three of us are still somehow still creative and special in contemporary music.

MK: What caused the end of Kluster? How would you define the difference between your approach and Schnitzler's? Was there some mutual contribution that may be valued today?

HJR: It was not an end, it was a split. I don't know enough about Schnitzler's recent output, but at the time I liked most the unpredictability of his input when we played live together, even so it was hard to bear sometimes (which was one of the reasons of the "split", but not the split of my agreement to his work and his reputation as one of the grandmasters of contemporary music).

MK: What were the principles of your tandem work with Dieter Moebius? Was mutual independence of any importance? What was the difference of your approaches?

HJR: Just doing IT, and of course was mutual independence of high importance and also the difference of each other's approaches, otherwise the music wouldn't have been that interesting.

MK: How can you explain the long life and the relative popularity of Cluster?

HJR: That's very easy to explain: Cluster-music is from invaluable value, because it is timeless, codeless, generationless. It is THE GENRE BEYOND ALL GENRES.

MK: Would you tell about the circumstances and the purposes of founding Harmonia? Was there any influence of moving to countryside? Why did Harmonia exist for years along with Cluster? What was the importance of such a parallel work?

HJR: Moebius and I went to settle down at the countryside because we were tired of travelling, of DOING IT all those years in a car across Europe (from end 1969 to 1972), bored by the fact of having earned no money at all, but happy to have been able to "land" in the beauty of that old, very abandoned place in the middle of Germany, beside a river, away from any village, near nice forests and fields with horses and chicken and geese etc.

Michael Rother, sent by his colleague Klaus Dinger from the group NEU to find out whether a fusion between NEU and CLUSTER might be possible, came one day to that place and decided to stay with us.

Harmonia was meant as an experiment and it worked this way for two years until we split. In the beginning it was interesting to work with Michael, but after a while Cluster was bored to rehearse always the same repertoire, we thought that we had lost our freedom and decided to finish this collaboration.

MK: What is your impression of the contacts with Brian Eno in the 70s? How would you describe your mutual influence? Was there something to learn for each of you in the field of technical-electronic investigations?

HJR: It was nice to work with him, because he is master of studio techniques and very creative and smart and full of fantasy in the way he's composing music. Moreover he's a very nice person and this even made it "easier" to work with him.

From my side there was a lot to learn in the moment of our meeting, especially how to use the studio as a tool.

MK: Why the initial collaboration with Eno was exactly within Harmonia? What may be the difference between Eno's contribution to Cluster and to Harmonia and which of them you value more?

HJR: Brian and Harmonia, that's a weird story. Harmonia didn't exist anymore in fact when we met, we produced quasi "the swan song of Harmonia" (Tracks & Traces). It was exactly the same method/way to compose Harmonia did first, when Cluster met up with Michael Rother. Sketch-like, easy, soundscaping, with sparse structure. And then, the first "Cluster & Eno", almost the same thing - easy, beautiful, sketch-like.

But "After the Heat" is already more or less a pure Eno production, the last meeting before we split from each other and a signal for us, "Cluster", to think about whether to go ahead or to stop collaboration. We continued, but you know it needed years in between to produce a record and finally it ended.

I value the first two as more "related to the Cluster-type" and the last one as more "Eno-type" but I like both. "Cluster & Eno" won the Radio-award of the year from Austrian Radio station ORF.

MK: What were the reasons of ceasing the work within Cluster? Was it bound to certain crisis of ideas that might take place at a time? If was, would you expand?

HJR: It was a necessary decision from my side, first because of something which I don't want to discuss here, but (as I found out afterwards) it was the best thing-to-do before riding to death the horse that carried the riders for such a long time that brave and careful.

MK: Will you give us some information of rather obscure span of 80s? What may explain your lessened activity as a musician? May it be supposed that the new creative basis was being built, or was there real abandonment of the things?

HJR: There was no real lessened activity in those days, but my family grew, three children to feed and educate, a garden to grew carrots and potatoes, fruit to earn, bread to cook, piano to play in between, having fun with the children, carrying them through the nature, trying to earn money in between with just some concerts, some products, without any gear of quality. We lived on 40 square meters at countryside in Austria with water and toilet outside; I had to bring wood from the forest and to fire cooker and oven. It was 1988 when I couldn't work anymore and had to sell my keyboard. It was hard to survive but we got help from the Alban Berg Endowment in Vienna. A whole new semi-professional studio and a keyboard (Kurzweil K 1000).

MK: What were the circumstances of creating "Gift of the Moment"? Had it appeared as a sign of the turn in your musical thought?

HJR: What a gift "Gift of the Moment" is. A friend of mine in Holland found out the possibility for me to produce in Rotterdam in another friend's house, whom neither I knew before. His name is Coen de Neef, he is such a sweet person. I'll never forget him and his hospitality.

MK: After the relatively silent period of 80 s there has been a real outburst of splendid and diverse works during last 10 years. How can you explain that? Would you call it coming into the new maturity as a musician? And still, may any sequence be found between 80 s and 90 s?

HJR: How can I explain that? Happiness in marginality! Love and joy, being part of a lovely family, having friends all over the world, getting such an echo of interest in what I am doing! Oh yes, even so there is not much in between, but there are all my first Self-portraits that allow a view into a period of my life when, since after the war, for the first time in my life-experience I was really happy, I enjoyed living SO much, because Martha my wife came into my life and the children arrived one after another and a restlessness of about 40 years went away.

MK: The works of 90 s, to mention "Fruhling", "Theater Works", "Pink, Blue and Amber", are touched by multi-instrumental presence what doubtlessly enriches the musical language. How did you come by the idea of abandoning the pure electronic discourse that prevails in the works of Cluster period? Would you tell something about your ways and habits of finding the mates for collaboration, and what is your appreciation of collaborative work as such?

HJR: I found all those mates like you - just by "Accident"; the way we work together is first the "heart-way" and second - the "musical/professional". I always liked to meet people; my first profession is physiotherapist and masseur, so this is professionally connected to many people. Otherwise it's in my blood, because of my ancestors, whose professions were preachers, teachers, doctors, pharmacists, politicians, all professions with many people involved.

MK: Whom of the musicians you had a chance to work with you would specify, and will you say some words concerning Capanni and Alesini?

HJR: Fabio is a dear friend, very close to our family as we are close to his family, because the way we behave is rather "Italian", we love children, we love good food and wine, we love the deep culture of Bella Italia, we love sitting together and talking about every interesting matter. Nicola is a dear friend as well, but because he is single (in the moment) and not that easy approachable we just come together at t0he occasion of concerts. We like very much to work together. So with Juriy Novoselic from Croatia, he is a dear friend as well, he loves the family life as we do and when we have the opportunity to come together then we enjoy each other very much. It's the same with Felix from Britain, Colm O Connell from Ireland, Alquimia from Mexico, Tim Story and his lovely family in Toledo Ohio/USA, or Eliot Curry in Iowa City, Nathan Boniske in Asheville, Michael Hoenig and Tom and Cathy Grenas in Los Angeles, Alec Way in San Francisco, Wolfgang Walkensteiner in Vienna, Stanislaw Michalak in Poland, Hans Fahlberg in Sweden, Agusto Macedo in Brazil, Richard di Santo in Toronto, Ken Matsutani, Mike Ezzo and Hiroshi Nagashima in Tokyo and many, many others.

MK: What is for you the special importance of working with electronic and acoustic keyboard, and what are the principles of the work in both cases?

HJR: I don't know much about principles, I know a lot about how and whether my ears like the sound of each instrument or not, about the temperature of a certain hour of a day, the ambiance of a venue, whether or not I am able to play in rock bars very quiet piano music, in museums techno drive, or how much I like the noise of a cicada outside in a quiet field. I am DOING IT.

MK: What are your influences and preferences as piano/keyboard player and composer? What about any contacts with other piano devoted musicians Harold Budd for instance?

HJR: To say the truth`: I don't care about any other musician who plays the same instrument. I appreciate good music and I feel bad if I have to listen to bad one. I don't care about composers. I care about the music when I am able to listen to it. And this happens very seldom, because of all the work I have to do during the day, my schedule is closed until the end of my life whenever this will be...

It is half past one at night now, after a day that started at half past six in the morning.

I am living a very chaotic but very "real "life, no virtuality at all.

MK: Do you have some general thoughts concerning development of XX century music? Are there most important/influential characters that you can point out? Do you accept the legitimacy of such terms as commercial/non-commercial or high-brow/low-brow music? What is postmodern in music for you?

HJR: Further to what I've mentioned already, I am at my own, whether this seems stupid/hermetic/topic/antiseptic/meloavangardoceltelectricitic (Sic - M.K.). There is none such question for me. I am out of any discussion whether something is commercial or not, postmodern, beforefuture, darkbeside, redbeyond, musique typique, Neutonerei, Klassischromantisch etc.

Is there any reason to analyze music, when your ears are open and your mind is healthy, when you're devoting yourself to "higher octaves"?

If it's shit, you shouldn't listen to it. Nobody can tell you that something is good, if it isn't.

Music is language in itself it doesn't need to be translated (its inner ingredient).

MK: The title Simfonia Contempora is unambiguous. Do you admit the music that you create may be considered as development of the line of classic simfonism? What is your opinion concerning contemporary (academic) symphonic activity of the last decades?

HJR: Of course it is. That's the right description "development of the line of classic simfonism", of course, what else could it be.

Contemporary "classical" music?

Bullshit in general, headshit, egoshit, selfproudnesshit, but not at all music - most of it (what I've heard at least, but of course I didn't hear much).

MK: What can you say about the music commissioned for theater/cinema and other purposes of this kind, what part you use to take in it, and how willingly? Do you think this music may be valued with no notice to its initial aim? Does something specify it in contrast to regular music?

HJR: Michael you are a dear scientist/writer/interviewer: What I am doing IS like a FILM, is novel-like, poetry by itself, I couldn't do any music by purpose. I am doing sound-literature, tone-painting, noise-cinema, Klangtheater since I started my career. Nobody realized it yet, but you do.

MK: Will you tell us something about your cultural activity in other fields, with no straight connection to writing/performing music, or along with it?

HJR: In the moment, with a view of the momentary political situation here in Austria I am writing political text, ironic comment to what's going on here. If you want I can send it, but it is in German, because that's the language I can express myself "to the point", direct against the mainstream of the momentary stupidity of Austrian politicians and the crowd of fools, blue-eyed friends of the heads of the Socialist Party, who don't want to realize that THEY LOST THE POWER, who really think Haider is a bad man. Socialists who don't want to speak about THEIR MISTAKES in the past and how it came that a blue party got the chance to grow/expand until they won last elections, even so Big Mouth Haider really behaved badly sometimes and still attacks the world with his sort of foolish "truth". I try to find somebody to publish it, but this country is still dominated by the idea that only "professionals" are allowed to write and publish and not people like me. That's also the reason why almost no "officials" notice that I am living here, a composer who worked for more than 30 years, who can proudly refer to more than 500 registered compositions, an author with a global presence.

But I am in the moment a man and head of a big family, who needs immediate help, because some business partners are taking me like shit and don't fulfill their obligations, because they got bankrupt, or because I am living in Austria, the nucleus of a new Nazi movement? It is ridiculously tragic.

If a dear girlfriend from Berlin (who is in Jerusalem in the moment, in a seminar to get some lessons about the healing method of Moshe Feldenkrais) wouldn't have helped with private money we wouldn't have been able to fulfill OUR OBLIGATIONS such as paying the rent for our flat, telephone, electricity, just the regular daily obligations.

MK: What is the tribute that you pay to poetry? As a rule you don t use to include verbal element in your musical works. Do you separate the poetry as such from what is commonly called texts, for songs, i.e.?

HJR: Poetry, as any other text, or music, "comes to me". I don't DO it. Either it is there or not. IT IS MY PROFESSION and so I know it has it's own reason whenever I am able to create text separated from the music or as part of it. I am still Johann Friedrich Christian, one of my ancestors who was a priest in a Protestant parish near Berlin: his home was built by the ancestor of a publisher in Vienna who tries since years to help to publish my textwork.

MK: How serious is your affection to poetry, and what are your preferences? What importance do you attribute to verbal culture as a whole?

HJR: Verbal culture is "THE CULTURE" along with musical culture". Look in the bible: "First was the word and the word was God and God was the word"

MK: The last question, but not the least important. What are your considerations of the ways of progressive music in the close future, whether you have any; and, anyhow, what are the ways that you think your own music is going to take now? What may be the most recent ideas that would lead it toward the beginning of the new decade and a new age?

HJR: I am one of the artists who opened the doors to the "Real New Age" already in the last 30 years of the past century. What is there left to do for me?
I AM DOING IT.